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Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Right when I was 8 years old I knew there was something
‘different’ about my gender and sexuality. I used to love
playing more with girls than boys. We were never taught
about sexuality. It was not even talked about. It was
extremely difficult growing up as a transgender person. I
also had a friend who is transgender and she was teased and
bullied a lot.
How about your family?
In terms of my family, my father used to work with the
public department – a ‘man’s’ job. He would not allow me
to grow my hair and would insist on getting my hair cut
short and I just hated it. I tried but I just couldn’t fit in. My
mother was quiet but supportive. Like many other women,
she would not open her mouth in front of my father.
My parents had two girls and five boys (including me). I
was bullied in my family. Also, a lot of people in my village
would tease my parents about me. At 13, I was sent to stay
with my uncle who used to work with the religious order
so I could perform "good" things and be reformed. Instead,
I knew about sex when I was 13 years old. I was raped by
my cousin then.
How was it in your later teenage
years?
In my small village, I would hide from my family to crossdress.
I moved into the city to work with a hotel. When I
moved into Kuala Lumpur, I would cross-dress often. After
I moved to the city I was raped by my friend who was in
the police. After the incident I was in trauma for two years.
During the time of the economic recession I had no choice
but to get into sex work. Many transgender persons were
working as sex workers. There is violence within sex work
but it also helped us to get a lot of money. I was into both
brothel-based sex work as well as street-based sex work.
I preferred street-based sex work as that would allow me
more negotiating power and I could earn more money
through that.
When HIV came into the picture, we were very confused
because there was an automatic association of HIV with
being gay. Though I prefer men, I have had sex with women
when I was doing sex work and have also taken part in sex
orgies, but I do not want to have sex with a woman. I have
explained to my mother and my family that marriage is not
in my diary. I cannot imagine getting married to a woman.
How did you begin the work that
you do now?
I began my work in 1987 in the area of transgender issues
with a project with the Ministry of Welfare. It was around
the time when beauty contests and parties etc were being
stopped by religious groups. For three years I worked on
interventions with religious groups.
Then I started working with the Pink Triangle (PT)
Foundation in 1990. My work with PT Foundation related
to training work and HIV. I was the first transgender
person to join PT Foundation. At the time when I joined I
was quite naïve about sexuality issues. I was uncomfortable
with gay men. It was unthinkable for me to see two men,
moustachioed, kissing each other. It would repulse me. I
found that abnormal. But now I am okay with it.
I left PT Foundation in 2000 as I felt it was time for me to
move on and use the knowledge I gained there elsewhere.
I still remain on the Board of Trustees for the foundation.
PT Foundation was earlier known as Pink Triangle Sdn
Bhd and we were forced to change the name because of
compulsions of funding etc. At PT Foundation we work
with drug users, sex workers, transsexuals, men who have
sex with men (MSM), and people living with HIV/AIDS
(PLWHA). I work as the Chair of the Transgender Core
Group and also contribute towards developing the vision
and programmes of the foundation.
Tell us more about transgender people in Malaysia.
Here, transgender persons are called Mak Nyahs which
essentially means the ‘soul of a woman’. The word
transgender is western. Transgender people do not want
to be called gay. Mak nyahs are those who are biologically
male and behave and feel like women and like wearing
women’s clothes. Nowadays, there are more mak nyahs
who wear their hair short, are not very rigid and also wear
men’s clothes. Many of them coming from smaller towns
cannot afford to wear women’s clothes for fear of being
discriminated against. Many of them are also forced into
heterosexual marriages and they often have to conform.
They have to hide their breasts and so on. Such marriages
do not last for long.
Do all mak nyahs want to have a sex change operation?
We feel that any person who thinks or feels like and wants
to become a woman is a mak nyah. They do not have to
go in for sex change operations to be called one because
we realise that these operations are expensive and not
everyone can afford them.
In terms of transsexuals, there are more male to female
transsexuals in comparison to female to male transsexuals.
There are more opportunities for the former than for the
latter. I have counselled six female to male transsexuals
in Malaysia, out of which two are into sex work. Female
to male transsexuals are also rare because the sex change
operation is more risky for them with creating a penis,
tucking of breasts, hormone treatment etc. A male to
female transsexual can opt to only get his penis tucked.
What does Islam say about sex change?
Earlier, in the 1970s and 80s, men could get married to
men and sex change operations were allowed and they
could acquire a female name. However, in 1983, there was
a fatwa (edict) by a religious group because they saw sex
change operations as hurting the body and also changing
God’s will. However, these operations are allowed for
hermaphrodites so that they can choose to be male or
female. Although they can change their names in the
passport or bank accounts, they are not allowed to change
their name in their birth certificate.
There are also a lot of unanswered questions in religion for
me which is why I have not opted for a sex change operation
yet. For example the inheritance to property rights are not
equal for men and women in our religion. So, if I opt for a
sex change operation I will have to give up an equal share
in the property. Also, the tombstones for men and women
are different. For women it is a flat tombstone whereas for
a man it is a round one. Also, if one is a biological male, the
person would be bathed by other men as a part of the death
rites and if one is a biological woman, a man cannot touch
her body. These are part of the dilemmas and unresolved
questions for me. Also, my mother loves me very much and
has asked me not to go for a sex change operation in her
lifetime. I really love and respect her and would not want
to hurt her. I am also very comfortable with my body.
Is there any focussed work with lesbians?
Although there is no focussed work with lesbians, they are
present within the group of female sex workers and cases
related to them are referred to a lesbian who handles these
issues. I know a transgender person – a biological man who
feels like a woman. She has however, not got a sex change
operation done as yet. She is in a relationship with a ‘real’
woman. They would term the relationship as a lesbian
relationship. However, using the penis to have sex with the
"real" woman is not acceptable in their relationship.
Tell us more about your current work.
I now work as the Co-ordinator for the Asia Pacific Network
of Sex Workers. I speak about issues of transgender people
in newspapers and magazines appear on the television
and talk about sexuality and rights. HIV is very often the
entry-point to talk about issues of sexuality. Through my
work I try to challenge the assumptions and notions of
psychiatrists, religious leaders etc and I think that works.
However, I do not believe in confrontation. I explain to
people about the stigma and discrimination one has to face
as a transgender person and I ask them "Do you think I
want to go through that?" I talk about how one may realise
one’s sexuality at any age, be it 13 or 30. But, people do
not understand easily.
I started to work as a volunteer with APNSW since a
meeting held in Chiang Mai in 1995. I feel the work is very
important and we need to do it. There was no funding for
the network in all these years. We got some funds only
about one and a half years ago after the performances
put up by my performance group, Prima Donna, at the
International Women’s Health Meeting in Delhi in 2005
and another performance. We now have funds from
AJSW, International HIV/AIDS Alliance and from United
Nation’s Population Fund. Our website www.apnsw.org
has a lot of details. Interestingly, we have changed the name
of APNSW from Asia Pacific Network of Sex Workers to
Asia Pacific Network on Sexual Health and Welfare. I feel
it is very important to translate the bigger objectives of the
network to different countries.
What are your other interests?
I feel gender and sexuality are still very taboo subjects in
Asia. Both are still constructed in the binary. I also feel
that we need to go much beyond talking about identity
politics of different groups like kothis, panthis and hijras. It
is important for all of us to get together and share ideas and
views. We are planning to organise a meeting/ conference
in Toronto in August, 2008.
One of my other areas of interest is to see the linkages
between religion and sexuality because we cannot ignore
religion in our contexts and ignoring it will not solve our
problems.
Khartini Slamah is the Co-ordinator for the Asia Pacific Network of Sex Workers.
She is an advocate for the rights of sex workers, people living with HIV and AIDS and
people who do not conform to sexual and gender norms.
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